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Images in clinical medicine: a sneeze. PubMed Google Scholar. I'm French and I spent 2 years in the US. I had a T-mobile subscription, and it was too painful to cancel my subscription. With my accent I could barely pass the robot that was trying to understand why I was calling. Then when I had someone on the phone, the call just dropped, in the middle of conversations. I did that a few times and then gave up. I assume I'll also receive a notification one day that I'm breaking the law and owe some crazy amount of money.

T-Mobile has stores all over and they can help you cancel in person I did this in the US, and it's very common to change carriers. I suspect you can also cancel online. I'm sure there are lots of things that are more difficult in the US, but France excels at bureaucracy in my experience.

I should also note that I love France in general and its investment in nuclear power in particular. KennyBlanken 5 days ago root parent next [—]. Former Tmobile customer here. I ended up with an account on my credit report because tmobile never actually closed the account and kept right on billing me. Once back in the late 90's when they were called something else, I think T-mobile stores are explicitly forbidden to help you cancel service. At the branch I visited, they insisted they were physically unable to cancel anything.

It is possible they were lying, but equally possible that corporate did make it impossible for them. We tried to cancel my mother-in-law's account. Even after they got a copy of the death certificate, they still refused to cancel.

About all you can do, usually, is cancel the credit card they are deducting from, or maybe to get your bank to reverse their charges and refuse any new ones.

Do not ever give T-mobile rights to charge for your account, monthly. So strange. Just before the pandemic, I went into a T-Mobile store and cancelled my hotspot service. No problems. Perhaps it's a regional thing? Or a performance issue for a particular store? JJMcJ 5 days ago root parent prev next [—]. This isn't really the opposite experience!

You had the same experience, with banks headquartered in different countries. I still await the experience of your fellow ex-pat who spent their blood, sweat and tears to sign up for an expensive service but cancelled with the wave of a hand. MisterTea 5 days ago root parent prev next [—]. Thankfully living in a big city in the USA there are T mobile stores you can go to and speak to a human being face to face. At the T-mobile branch I went into, they insisted they were physically unable to cancel service there, and refused to call their service center.

The only way I have discovered to cancel T-mobile service is to get your bank to stop honoring their charges. I don't think you even need to be in a particularly big city.

I think most cities of at least 50k population have one even if it's just a kiosk in a mall. This is the worst level of fraud. The bank is pretending to be providing you a service here! But instead they funnel your money to someone else. I had another variation of this, with AIB in Ireland, in case anyone ever thinks of doing business with them.

Vodafone started billing me for a defunct account, due to I charitably believe an operational error. AIB refused to revoke Vodafone's unlimited access to withdraw funds from my account. I'd guess the scope of this fraud is in the billions to hundreds of billions EU-wide, but it doesn't seem to have come to the attention of regulators yet. I tried to delete my Spotify account in Sweden. Not just cancel, but delete because they inexplicably put my profile on the Internet in full display and I was not even a little bit okay with that.

I think 7 different "yes I'm really sure, yes despite the sad violin music and yes despite the images of sad puppies", a support ticket, several emails going back and forth confirming I'm really sure, and then a few more forms assuring I'm absolutely sure I want to do this. I don't If anything this nonsense makes me want to remove the account even more.

If it was just a button I might have come back later, but they can rest assured they will never see me again after that nonsense. If that means listening to gramophones for the rest of my life, so be it. I think the general idea is that if they make it difficult enough, some people might just decide that it's not worth canceling.

I'm sure there's some metric that says most people canceling a subscription are unlikely to resubscribe, so making it difficult to do so probably increases the likelihood of keeping you by some small percentage, offsetting your likelihood of coming back. The NY Times is a great and slimy example of this. Canceling the subscription requires a phone call or online chatbot, which make a people less likely to cancel. When you do try to cancel, they offer you a deal to stay.

You have to reject that deal to finally cancel your subscription. While this is clearly a bad customer experience, I can almost guarantee that it increases their retention rates.

Ultimately, a business is hurt a lot less by giving a poor experience to someone already canceling their subscription. NikolaNovak 5 days ago root parent next [—]. I'm sure their metrics are right overall. In my case, however, they were wrong: I wanted to pause The Economist as we had a baby and I wasn't going to read a weekly newspaper for a bit As a result, my blood is filled with dark seeping hate for The Economist, and what was going to be a 3-month pause is now a life-long mission to dissuade everybody I can from sending them a penny - same as with Goodlife fitness :D.

NYT did it to me as well, they will never see a penny from me again. It was just clicking around in the site! I unsubscribed and resubed from them multiple times and am a happy subscriber right now as well!

Thats changed then - several years ago they gave me a right dance involving phone calls and emails. Lost me as a customer for good. BostonEnginerd 5 days ago root parent prev next [—].

I was fortunate enough to subscribe to the Times through the Apple Subscription platform. Only took me one click to unsubscribe. Zanni 5 days ago root parent prev next [—]. I'm sure it improves retention, but it also negatively affects their subscription rate probably not as much or they wouldn't do it. The primary reason that I won't subscribe to the NYT is their cancelation policy.

Barriers to exit are barriers to entry. I think a lot of businesses greatly overvalue behavioral economics as a means to control people. Nudging doesn't seem to work nearly as well as it's "supposed" to when implemented in real world scenarios. Heck, even in a laboratory setting the effects are honestly pretty sketchy.

And that doesn't even factor in disgruntled ex-customers going around telling everyone they meet about their experiences.

This is a separate problem from that. It's really easy to cancel a Spotify subscription. It's nearly impossible to get your free account deleted, though. This is largely because early-stage Spotify delegated account management by allowing people to create accounts in Facebook and Google. Pokemon Go had this issue, too, with a bunch of people opting to create accounts through Google since it was the easiest way if you were using an Android device, but then it became literally impossible for the first two years of the game's existence to extricate the account from Google and make it native to Niantic's own databases or link it to a different Google account.

It's just something these startups don't even think about when rushing to market. What happens when someone changes or gets rid of their Facebook account? Semiapies 5 days ago root parent prev next [—]. The UK Times did the same thing to me, except I had to call at 2am my time no hour service in order to sit on hold and then get the "are you aware of all the features?

See, if they hadn't had such an annoying deletion process, I might have come back after learning that. But I won't. I will never. I suspect from personal experience that companies underestimate how much business they are truly losing due to spite alone. Send an email mentioning you want to delete your accounts and all your personal information from their system, according to GDPR. They have 30 days to comply.

The site needs be actively targeting the EU in some way. Spotify is a Swedish company. It's nice. I m French living in Hong Kong, and in both I sometimes have to cancel my credit card to get rid of newspaper subscription. And often, the more the newspaper whines about freedom of the press the harder it is to get rid of their legal warning that I must pay!!! And there was no contract limit during the 1-click 5 minutes sub!!! Mediapart in France was so borderline writing me every week after I had to cancel my second credit card, being unable to send french snail mail from France, the only way they accept!

The first card was for LeMonde. Totally made me hate the militant press, and in BOTH places, it's really insane. Like they treat their readers way worse than the government treat them, and yes, even in Hong Kong : At least NYT didnt threaten me legally and took a simple email. I was so stressed when I cancelled, there was again no frigging button. I will never again sub to newspaper it's just too much worry you ll have a forever parasitic CC bill until you force cancel the CC : reply.

I also had a terrible experience trying to cancel my subscription to Le Monde. In the end I paid a service something like 6euros so that they would send the proper letter. There's 0 chance I will ever subscribe to a newspaper ever again. One other thing I'd like: For digital subscriptions, I'd like not using the service for, say, 30 days to automatically pause billing. So if I don't use Netflix or read the NYT for a whole billable month, they don't bill me for the month.

If there's no cost to the producer and no value to the non- user, there shouldn't be a charge. If I write your name on a napkin along with a request to cancel service and hand it to random employee of some company you have a subscription with, how do they verify that it really came from you? Reading the replies it seems like this law may have incentivized some companies to make themselves extremely difficult to contact in the first place.

How does the law deal with this? It doesn't. The legal framework leaves a lot of room for interpretation by the judge. They look at the law itself, and interpret the intent of the lawmaker. Suppose I wanted to cancel a service from a firm that was hard to reach.

I'd block the payments through my bank and if it ever went to court I'd just need to show I took reasonable steps to attempt to contact them before blocking any payments and then most likely win the case. ImPostingOnHN 3 days ago root parent prev next [—]. It is money, not any law, which has incentivized this. For many companies, there's just no financial incentive to let customers easily cancel or contact you once recurring payments are set up.

Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 1: Once you have their money, you never give it back reply. It may not be possible to support these analog mediums on an Ethereum smart contract for example. Seems like smart contracts aren't so smart if they don't support easy cancelation mechanisms.

Our future digital overlords might choose to integrate humans into the hivemind to support these analog cancellation requests, but gas costs would certainly spike. I'm a bit ignorant of smart contracts and I'm not a lawyer, but presumably the service provider would have to take whatever action would invalidate the subscription.

It gets weird with escrow though, because it's possible the law could treat money in escrow like in a contract account as already prepaid- if you wrote a contract to be paid every month for 12 months provided that a given key to a service stated valid and funded the escrow for the 12 months, it's possible the court would rule that you bought 12 months of a product, not a subscription. I'm not aware if this has been litigated. Can't a company make it so that there's a "cancel contract" method?

I am not an Ethereum expert, I just don't understand, to be clear. I'm sure this is far more basic than what you know how to do, but this seems pretty simple to add a "cancel contract" method that seems like it'd meet the requirement to be as easy to cancel as it was to set up. The account status seems like they can at any time just read it off the smart contract, they already do for balance monitoring each month in this example.

I was more so referring to having to support the handing of a napkin to an employee. You'll probably have to make it so that either party can cancel contracts. I don't think the law really cares about this sort of thing. Unnecessarily raises costs. The FTC's perspective is much improved over this. It provides regulatory pressure to make unsubscribing as easy as possible.

Those costs are entirely absent if customers can click a button. Otherwise, if the regulation merely prescribes that there has to be a button, there is little consequence if the button doesn't work, or you have to jump through 50 hoops to find it like in cookie banners. The Swedish model ensures that if your button is unsatisfactory, you'll be legally obliged to pay heed to any random letter, phone call, email, or indeed even napkin that comes in.

It's a simple incentive. The Swedish model also makes it such that sufficiently motivated ass holes can make a company's life very difficult. Much better to have sensible legislation like the FTC's where your mode of unsubbing is equivalent to your mode of subbing.

Really, shockingly good stuff from the FTC here. Unsurprisingly crappy stuff from Sweden. Also, looks like the Swedish outcomes are pretty shit!

I don't think most companies are maliciously breaking unsubscribe buttons, but there are a lot of websites that don't work on some browsers, are badly maintained to the point of being unusable, are confusing, or simply don't work because the people that maintain them aren't professional web designers. When your website is broken and you continue to charge me money, I don't think the onus on me to report the broken website, help your maybe non-existent IT division to find the bug, wait around for them to come up with a fix, and then help them beta test it.

I should be able to file a ticket and say "I don't want your services please stop taking my money". Tangible forms of cancellation only: a written notice with your account number and intent or the online cancellation form.

No it shouldn't and that should be obvious. Yes, this is good, but the FTC's ruling does this as well so it's better. Only way a company could get around offering click to cancel would be to not offer online signup. Best of luck to those companies succeeding! I imagine though that you'll still have companies trying to stretch the definition of "at least as easy as sign-up" to breaking point. You didn't just "click to sign up", you probably filled in a sign-up form to create an account, clicked on a link in your email to validate your account, then filled in another form to add payment info.

I wouldn't be surprised to see companies saying we can have multiple, multi-page 'exit' forms and an "Are you sure? Explain why that should be obvious. The number of things that could increase the costs of providing a service beyond willingness to pay for the service is essentially unbounded. Providing customer service, including cancellation requests, is a fundamental part of running any customer-facing service.

If you can't manage that within the "willingness to pay for the service" then perhaps you shouldn't be running said service in the first place. Because soon enough your customers will have issues and nowhere to turn to, and then they won't be customers anymore unless, you know, you make it a pain in their asses to leave. Weird straw man. Feel free to build your straw men, though!

Processing napkin cancellation requests requires just about as much work as any other form of "manual" request -- whether that's over email, phone, etc. There is nothing special about processing a "napkin cancellation" or whatever other form, the process is the same: find the account, do whatever verification needs to be done, and cancel it on the backend.

In the end, you still have to have a manual cancellation pipeline powered by customer service. Whether that's because a customer can't find the button, wants human confirmation that it's been cancelled, whathaveyou.

There is no strawman. Manual cancellation requests, just like any other manual request, is a standard part of Customer Service. If you can't provide CS, then you shouldn't be operating a customer-facing service. The costs of running phone support are absurd. Sorry for claiming you were making straw men. I realize now you have poor reading comprehension. All the best. Many things which make society a better place impose a nonzero cost.

Those things will certainly seem bad if you're focusing only on the cost, and ignoring the improvements. Breza 3 days ago parent prev next [—].

You can unsubscribe to an email any number of ways. Wellll, Finland IS Scandinavian, in social system if not in language. Sixt car rental did not follow these rules.

The procedure was something like "write a letter to out german head quarters". I ended up making a GDPR request for them to first send me all data they had and then remove any data including email addresses they had on me. I will hopefully never have to use their services again. Are you renting a fleet? How do you even subscribe to car rentals?

Is this a thing where if you rent frequently enough, you get a discount to just pay constantly instead of per car? The swedish laws apply to news letters as well. I rented a car from them in In I had enough.

This seems really annoying. You can unsubscribe to most things in writing as well in the US. The issue is that it takes only a misclick to subscribe, whereas writing and mailing a letter or getting a napkin and travelling to the company's HQ takes considerably more effort few companies have humans answer the phone. Seems that Scandinavia needs to change their laws if the goal is to make it easy for the consumer. I feel like this is missing the point. Because it does not solve the problem.

The law should outline mediums that companies must accept. IE have a published webpage or e-mail address that allows unsubscribe. The solution to this is to help the US rise to the occasion, not complain about it on the internet.

Many of us are trying to do exactly that. Can you explain how smugly proclaiming "see how we are better than you!? It is not a constructive comment, it does not offer any meaningful insight to how we might improve the US. It's just divisive. Showcasing a better system that the US could emulate is a great way to offer insight into how the US could improve.

Interpreting it as "See how we are better than you!? Interpreting it like that is just putting insecurity on display. Given the choice of two reactions: - "Geez, that system does sound better than what we've got going on here, we should consider adopting it" and - "I get it, you think you're better than us! Of course, that's exactly it. Responding to every single thread about the US with "I don't understand why the US is this way, we do it better" isn't divisive at all.

And anybody who suggests so is insecure. I prefer a constructive discussion. This ain't one. It really is constructive, sharing how others have solved a particular problem. You didn't actually address the point of taking it as a negative being an artifact of insecurity, so let me add a second opinion to the same effect. It would be respectful of you to provide a meaningful non-sarcastic response. Is it? We reject this logic in other areas sexual assault comes to mind.

Why is it valid here? Can you expand? I don't understand what you're trying to communicate. What's the English word for when you're angry about something but you aim that anger towards a whole other thing? Who is angry? I am tired of the divisive nature of this kind of rhetoric, and I am invested enough in the HN community that I want it to stop.

I do not have a lot of spare emotional capacity for Internet drama, so if it graduates from annoyance to actual anger, I will simply abandon HN. It's not divisive, our friends in Europe are on team human, same as our friends around the globe, and they're sharing info on how to do a particular thing well reply. Comments like that though are really just a viable solution in disguise -- make the U.

That's impossible. Said country differs dramatically from the US on almost every meaningful measurement, from population size, density, style of government, cultural history, existing systems, etc. And it begs the question that said country's system is actually better. In some metrics maybe it is, in others perhaps less so.

And there's no reason to believe that US citizens' priorities on that will be the same. Some differencies are relevant, some not.

Population density has nothing to do with the regulation re ease or assymetries related to canceling contracts. Nordic ISPs are probably doing fairly well Telia et al.